bugDenemo - Bugs: bug #45493, Key signature dialog hiccup


bug #45493: Key signature dialog hiccup

Submitter:  Richard Shann <rshann>
Submitted:  Wed 08 Jul 2015 10:11:04 AM UTC
Category:  None Severity:  3 - Normal
Item Group:  None Status:  None
Privacy:  Public Assigned to:  None
Originator Name:  Open/Closed:  Open
* Mandatory Fields

Add a New Comment (Rich Markup)

Comment Type & Canned Response:
       No canned response available


Thu 09 Jul 2015 08:13:08 AM UTC, comment #5: 

I think dropping some of the mode stuff (dorian ...) and just keeping Major/Minor does make it seem that Denemo has been written from a rather limited perspective. Thinking about it, the reason that LilyPond allows the user to specify the mode in such detail is because it would make knowledgeable musicians uncomfortable to see, for example, a piece headed \key C \major if the piece was in fact in A minor. And LilyPond is, of course, intended to be read.

Denemo from the outset tried to generate pleasantly readable LilyPond syntax. This got into difficulties and is still work-in-progress (a lot of commands generate repeated chunks of syntax which should be turned into variable references if possible).

The worst example of Denemo's LilyPond syntax is the default repeat syntax - there are commands to generate the proper \repeat {}\alternative{... syntax, but these are hidden from the casual user because unless they understand the LilyPond syntax being generated they will get stuck.

Anyway, it is clear this bug needs to stay open - for those that will read the generated LilyPond this dialog needs to be expanded to allow the correct mode of the music to be passed to LilyPond, for the casual user it could be hidden altogether, they can simply sharpen/flatten the keysignature.

Richard Shann <rshann>
Project Administrator
Wed 08 Jul 2015 09:32:51 PM UTC, comment #4: 

Distinguishing between major and, say, dorian is the same as distinguishing major and minor. So if you say d dorian has the same accidentials as c major so that you don't need the option, then the same argument applies for c major and a minor, i.e. you don't need a selection of the mode at all. If this is what you prefer, then the dialog should contain one field to choose the accidential (or alternatively a graphical representation of the circle of fiths), i.e. ..., bbb, bb, b, 0, #, ##, ###, ...
Lilypond however makes the distiction in the key signature, i.e. you can choose between \major, \ionian, \dorian, \phrygian, \lydian, \mixolydian, \aeolian, and \minor. See http://www.lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/notation/displaying-pitches#key-signature

At the moment, the key chooser seems to remember the last chosen entry for both major and minor while the dialog is active. For example, when I select G major and then click on minor, the selector jumps to A (minor). Clicking again on major re-produces G major. If I go back to minor and select D, going back to major again produces the G.

Wed 08 Jul 2015 08:54:43 PM UTC, comment #3: 

Yes, making it two stage is not ideal, just better than the confusion that the dialog generates at present. It does do Option (1) to some extent - if you change Mode it switches to the related key name (ie keeps the key signature the same). This surprises people as they expect it to just change the Mode.
I don't know why/by whome modes were dropped, nor if/why LilyPond supports them as they are nothing to do with music typesetting nor even MIDI output. They do represent some musical information about the score and Denemo does have support for adding commentary to a score.

Richard Shann <rshann>
Project Administrator
Wed 08 Jul 2015 08:45:35 PM UTC, comment #2: 

With a two-stage dialog one needs more clicks for everything. Even if you don't want to change the mode (e.g. keep major), you'd have to select it anyway. Thus I don't think that's a good idea.

Two options come to my mind:
(1) Leave the dialog as it is. Upon changing the mode, the key should be set to something reasonable. That could be either the parallel (e.g. C major to A minor) or the same tone (e.g. C major to C minor).
(2) Replace the dialog with another one in which a circle of fiths is drawn. Then the user can select a key from the circle.

By the way, why has the support of other modes than major or minor (e.g. dorian, phrygian, etc.) been dropped a few years back?

Wed 08 Jul 2015 10:16:57 AM UTC, comment #1: 

Actually, it is worse than this, a very complex interaction - perhaps we should just drop it? Or make it a two stage dialog, major/minor followed by key name?

Richard Shann <rshann>
Project Administrator
Wed 08 Jul 2015 10:11:04 AM UTC, original submission:  

In the key sig dialog when you select Minor without having specifically selected a key name it switches the key name to the relative minor. You have to select a key first - which you can't do if it is C that you want.
A first improvement would be to place the Key name above the major/minor button to indicate it should be done first. But the key name selector needs to be in some "unselected" state at the start - setting A-sharp and major might do - it would have to be changed by the user.

Richard Shann <rshann>
Project Administrator


(Note: upload size limit is set to 16384 kB, after insertion of the required escape characters.)

Attach Files:

No files currently attached


Depends on the following items: None found

Items that depend on this one: None found


Carbon-Copy List
  • -email is unavailable- added by rshann (Submitted the item)

    There are 0 votes so far. Votes easily highlight which items people would like to see resolved in priority, independently of the priority of the item set by tracker managers.

    Only logged-in users can vote.





    No changes have been made to this item

    Back to the top

    Powered by Savane 3.9