bugFree UCS Outline Fonts - Bugs: bug #24987, U+0387 GREEK ANO TELEIA too low

 
 

bug #24987: U+0387 GREEK ANO TELEIA too low

Submitter:  Christos Georgiou <tzot>
Submitted:  Tue 02 Dec 2008 08:47:06 PM UTC
   
 
Category:  individual character(s) Severity:  3 - Normal
Item Group:  glyph(s) incorrect Status:  Fixed
Privacy:  Public Assigned to:  Stevan_White
Open/Closed:  Closed Release:  * 2008-03-23
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Mon 08 Dec 2008 10:40:36 AM UTC, comment #7: 

And to answer directly your question: iff the suggested glyph for a middle dot is not the upper dot of a colon, then yes, the Unicode standard is inaccurate in this suggestion, and Greek "ano teleia" is not interexchangeable with "middle dot".

Christos Georgiou <tzot>
Mon 08 Dec 2008 10:31:48 AM UTC, comment #6: 

I added a second comment, where I tried to say that I don't know why the standard suggests that "U+00B7 is the preferred character". I also found out that the standard "mandates" that glyphs of characters should be the same as the glyphs of the preferred characters, and I guess that is why you request a reasoning from me. Like I said: I don't know who (or why) suggested that the middle dot is the preferred character for a high dot.

However, the Unicode standard itself has inconsistencies with its mandating, at least as far as exemplary glyphs go. For example, check U+210C and U+210F; their glyphs are different too in the Unicode standard rendering.

As a side note, about the mandating, the U+0022 "QUOTATION MARK" glyph cannot be linked to both U+201C and U+201D ones, neither can the U+0027 glyph be the same as both U+2018 and U+2019, but that is a completely different issue, I know.

So let the "ano teleia" be the glyph of a high dot, as its definition says, and let anyone preferring to follow the Unicode suggestion use the middle dot instead. Thanks for being meticulous.

Christos Georgiou <tzot>
Mon 08 Dec 2008 09:48:27 AM UTC, comment #5: 

Christos,

Thanks for the info!

However, it seems we are misunderstanding one another.
It is the Unicode standard that says the preferred character is the mid-dot:

Quoting from
    http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U0370.pdf

"0837 GREEK ANO TELEIA
   * functions in Greek like a semicolon
   * 00B7 · is the preferred character
   = 00B7 · middle dot "

So the question remains:  is the Unicode standard inaccurate on this point?

Steve White <Stevan_White>
Group administrator
Wed 03 Dec 2008 12:33:22 AM UTC, comment #4: 

Now, about the suggestion of using U+00B7 instead in the Unicode standard; I searched, but couldn't find any reference regarding who or why suggested it. Sorry. I can imagine why, but I don't know why.

Christos Georgiou <tzot>
Tue 02 Dec 2008 10:06:04 PM UTC, comment #3: 

Thanks for the quick action!

Evidence in no particular order:

1. "ano teleia" means "upper dot"; "middle dot", if it existed in greek grammar, would be "mesē teleia" (μέση τελεία). The words «meson/μέσον», "medium", "middle" have a common root, by the way.

2. the primary school's grammar book; if I work on it, I might find an online-copy from e-yliko.sch.gr (e-material schools gr)

3. even the Unicode standard agrees with me ;) Check the attached file. You can see it also yourself: cut the whole U+0387 rectangle and paste it over the e.g. U+0B7 rectangle, the lower-case ēta; the ano teleia is on the same horizontal as the top of ēta. Either cut and paste, or place your line of sight to be almost parallel to the screen surface or a printed copy.

Again, thanks.


Anonymous
Tue 02 Dec 2008 09:08:50 PM UTC, comment #2: 

Christos,

I have now implemented U+0387 just as you recommend, as the top dot of the colon, in the Sans and Mono faces, and saved it in CVS.

However, the Unicode standard
     http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U0370.pdf
says the preferred character is the middle dot u+00B7.

Can you give me further evidence that the standard is inadequate on this point?

Thanks!

Steve White <Stevan_White>
Group administrator
Tue 02 Dec 2008 08:47:06 PM UTC, comment #1: 

This item has been reassigned from the project Free UCS Outline Fonts support tracker to your tracker.

The original report is still available at support #106566

Following are the information included in the original report:

[field #0]                  Item ID: 106566
[field #1]                 Group ID: 1405
[field #2]              Open/Closed: Open
[field #3]                 Severity: 3 - Normal
[field #4]                  Privacy: Public
[field #8]                         : Unknown support Field Display Type
[field #9]                 Category: None
[field #10]             Submitted by: tzot
[field #11]              Assigned to: None
[field #12]             Submitted on: Mon 01 Dec 2008 03:09:50 PM CET
[field #13]                  Summary: U+0387 GREEK ANO TELEIA too low
[field #14]      Original Submission: The 'Greek ano teleia' is implemented as a middle dot currently in FreeSans and FreeMono, which is a mistake based on the definition of 'ano teleia' in the Greek language.

The correct placement above the baseline should be like the upper dot of ":" (U+0387, colon). For example, it is correctly so currently in FreeSerif, and also in another free font, Gentium. See http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%AC%CE%BD%CF%89_%CF%84%CE%B5%CE%BB%CE%B5%CE%AF%CE%B1

If there are no resources available to do that, I offer mine, but I'll have to familiarize myself with the project's tools and modus operandi.
[field #16]               Item Group: None
[field #17]                   Status: None
[field #18]        Component Version: None
[field #19]         Operating System: None
[field #20]          Reproducibility: None
[field #21]               Size (loc): None
[field #22]            Fixed Release: None
[field #23]          Planned Release: None
[field #24]                   Effort: 0.00
[field #28]                 Priority: 5 - Normal
[field #31]         Percent Complete: 0%
[field #33]                  Release: None
[field #58]     Custom Select Box #1: None
[field #59]     Custom Select Box #2: None
[field #60]     Custom Select Box #3: None
[field #61]     Custom Select Box #4: None
[field #62]     Custom Select Box #5: None
[field #63]     Custom Select Box #6: None
[field #64]     Custom Select Box #7: None
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[field #66]     Custom Select Box #9: None
[field #67]    Custom Select Box #10: None

Steve White <Stevan_White>
Group administrator
Tue 02 Dec 2008 08:47:06 PM UTC, original submission:  

The 'Greek ano teleia' is implemented as a middle dot currently in FreeSans and FreeMono, which is a mistake based on the definition of 'ano teleia' in the Greek language.

The correct placement above the baseline should be like the upper dot of ":" (U+0387, colon). For example, it is correctly so currently in FreeSerif, and also in another free font, Gentium. See http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%AC%CE%BD%CF%89_%CF%84%CE%B5%CE%BB%CE%B5%CE%AF%CE%B1

If there are no resources available to do that, I offer mine, but I'll have to familiarize myself with the project's tools and modus operandi.

Christos Georgiou <tzot>

 

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Attached Files
file #16970:  alignment.png added by None (7KiB - image/png - In relation to comment #3)

 

Depends on the following items: None found

Items that depend on this one: None found

 

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    Follow 9 latest changes.

    Date Changed by Updated Field Previous Value => Replaced by
    2008-12-26 Stevan_White StatusFix posted Fixed
        Open/ClosedOpen Closed
    2008-12-02 None Attached File- Added alignment.png, #16970
    2008-12-02 Stevan_White CategoryNone individual character(s)
        Item GroupNone glyph(s) incorrect
        StatusNone Fix posted
        Assigned toNone Stevan_White
        ReleaseNone 2008-03-23
    2008-12-02 Stevan_White Reassign itemFree UCS Outline Fonts, sr #106566 Free UCS Outline Fonts, bug #24987

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