bugFree UCS Outline Fonts - Bugs: bug #30520, More Greek character suggestions

 
 

bug #30520: More Greek character suggestions

Submitted by:  None
Submitted on:  Thu 22 Jul 2010 01:39:20 PM UTC  
 
Category: individual character(s)Severity: 3 - Normal
Item Group: glyph(s) uglyStatus: Won't fix
Privacy: PublicAssigned to: Steve White <Stevan_White>
Open/Closed: ClosedRelease: 2009-01-04

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Thu 01 Dec 2011 12:37:11 PM UTC, comment #6:

Hi Steve,

Haven't heard from you in a while!

I reviewed all your suggestions, individual comments follow.

The upshot is, at this time I won't be making any changes. While I agree with a couple of your objections, these are all stylistic in nature, and I think continuity with the source font is a stronger guideline than any of these. I'm not convinced the changes would be improvements.

Is your "Greek NT" anywhere available for download? I did a search, and saw it mentioned...

The FreeFont greek range comes from the old Omega system fonts.
The Greek designs resemble stylistically Bitstream Cyberbit, but not very much other fonts at my disposal. Presumably, both the Omega fonts and Cyberbit derive from some older sources, but I don't know what those would be.

Several of your complaints are based on arguments from pen-and-ink calligraphy. I'm going to argue against that.

The letters in this font, as in many general-purpose fonts, do not follow a single style based on a specific mechanical heritage.
By "mechanical heritage" I mean like calligraphy with a certain kind of pen, or printing with metal type.
For instance, the Latin "roman" range follows a long geneology of newsprint typefaces that that went through a cut metal tradition (which influenced them greatly), which derived from a stonecutting tradition, which in the end came from a calligraphic style. (That's a story, but roughly it's right). The Latin "italic" is more strongly directed toward a (specific) style used by scribes in Rome at a certain time.

Of course, modern fonts are free of the constraints of pen and ink, of chisel and stone, of metal cutting and presses. The styles echo those previous environments, but are not dictated by them.

The range in FreeSerif, while reflecting a calligraphic history, is not essentially calligraphic in nature.

----------------------

Beta: Should tail slant to left as in rho?
Well, this is almost invisible, but I see the difference.
I would have made them the same, too.
I don't buy the calligraphic argument here, though.
Comparisons with other fonts show this small feature to
be a peculiarity of Omega.

Eta: Should descender slant slightly to right?
Most other fonts have the descender quite straight, and
this fits with the rest of the range here.

Delta: Should the top have a tear drop on top arm?
Different fonts vary greatly in this regard.
I think the thin hook fits the overall design of the range.

Iota: Should it have a serif on top or not? (Compare kappa.)
Most other fonts do not feature a serif on the iota,
whether kappa has one or not. Counterexample proving rule:
Deja Vu Serif has a serif on iota -- but then that font is
overall much more heavily serifed than FreeSerif.

Kappa: Lower leg with upward curve rather than flat serif?
Of all your suggestions, this one appeals to me strongest.
The flat serif does indeed seem out of place to my eye.
Most fonts use a slight upward-curved taper here, which
seems more delicate and more like the other letters.
However this comes from the Omega and Cyberbit tradition,
and to me that holds more weight. Maybe they were trying
for compatibility with the Latin range.

Nu: Should it have curve at top-left?
This curve -- flourish, whatever -- is a feature of the
Greek range from Omega.
Again, I don't buy the calligraphic argument.

Psi: Should the line get thicker or thinner toward the bottom?
You argue from what is "normal". Who says, exactly?
fedra serif display: thicker
greta display italic: thinner
gentium: thick at top and bottom, thin in middle!
bitstream cyberbit: thicker

Please don't hesitate to make more suggestions!
Cheers again!

Steve White <Stevan_White>
Project AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Sat 07 Aug 2010 11:36:36 AM UTC, comment #5:

Steve,

The scriptier character I meant is psi (0x03c8).
In your pdf file you replace a rounder version with the symmetrical, lyre-shaped version of the letter.

The CVS part is easy: To get the latest freefont,

cvs -z3 -d:pserver:anonymous@cvs.savannah.gnu.org:/sources/freefont co freefont

FontForge is tricky to say the least. Get the older version at
https://sourceforge.net/projects/fontforge/files/fontforge-source/
and build and install it the usual way. With this you can open the SFD files.

If you're familiar with vector graphics programs, the drawing part won't be too hard. But that's all you have to do.
Let me know if you have any questions!

Cheers!

Steve White <Stevan_White>
Project AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Fri 06 Aug 2010 12:47:07 PM UTC, comment #4:

Hi Steve,

I agree that these last suggestions are very minor. (I think the "scriptier" character you're thinking of is phi and is easy to confuse with psi, and I agree the one in FreeSerif is very nice!)

I'll be glad to contribute suggested changes though I will need some time to get up to speed with both CVS and FontForge (I can do it, but I'm still new to Linux and not a programmer by trade).

I'll be back!
Steve

Steve Baugh <humbug>
Tue 03 Aug 2010 06:36:33 PM UTC, comment #3:

Steve,

Are you able to use FontForge? If you can build the 20080429 version, that would be best.

If you would like, go ahead and make your changes to the latest .sfd files in CVS, and send me a diff!

Otherwise, I don't have strong feelings about much of this. The biggest one is, although I know both versions of psi are used, I rather prefer the scriptier one in text. But I'm no Greek...

Could you provide further reasoning or evidence that this change is appropriate?

Cheers!

Steve White <Stevan_White>
Project AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Wed 28 Jul 2010 02:53:49 PM UTC, comment #2:

OK, my user name is "humbug" but my first name is Steve. I didn't register earlier because the Savannah security certificate is out of date or something and Firefox really didn't like that....

Best,

Steve

Steve Baugh <humbug>
Thu 22 Jul 2010 08:05:52 PM UTC, comment #1:

Hi Anonymous,

This bug tracking process would be more efficient if you made your own Savannah account. You could be e-mailed directly about changes to issues. And I could stop calling you "Anonymous".

But don't let that stop you making suggestions!

Steve White <Stevan_White>
Project AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Thu 22 Jul 2010 01:39:20 PM UTC, original submission:

Here are a few more suggestions for some Greek characters in FreeSerif. Some are quite minor and some have a little more value to make the font more consistent. I am attaching a PDF document with 72 point samples of each character here. The first is FreeSerif and after the arrow is the corresponding character in "Greek NT," an old Greek font I created a long time ago.

Beta (0x03B2): The "tail" or bottom of the vertical line could slant slightly to the left as it does in the Rho (0x03C1) character. This would make the font more consistent. This slight curve is caused when writing the Beta (and Rho) because one starts at the bottom and moves the pen slightly from left to right in a natural motion. In the attached PDF I show the FreeSerif Beta, the FreeSerif Rho (which has this slight "bend" at the bottom I am talking about), and the Beta in Greek NT.

Eta (0x03B7): Just like the Beta, the "tail" or bottom of the vertical line could slant slightly to the right. This is caused by the writer moving the pen in this direction in anticipation of writing the next one.

Delta (0x03B4): The top curved line of the delta is very thin where usually it has a "teardrop" shape or at least more weight. When drawing this character with pen and ink, the "teardrop" is caused by a "blob" of ink coming out because you start a Delta at the top and draw it down in a counter-clockwise to clockwise direction.

Iota (0x03B9): The iota should have a serif at the top (the "hook" at the bottom is nice). I say it "should" have a serif because the Kappa (discussed next) in FreeSerif does have a serif and the iota is basically the vertical member of the Kappa when you look at handwritten Greek manuscripts that this font is imitating (or other Greek computer fonts). This would also give the Iota a little more width as it tends to be too close to the previous character in some character combinations in FreeSerif.

Kappa (0x03BA): This is personal preference, but I prefer the bottom of the bottom angled "leg" of the Kappa to have a slight upward curve. In FreeSerif, this leg has a flat serif that extends left-right as if this were the foot of a capital letter; this kind of serif does not match any other lower case character in the Greek font set in this regard.

Nu (0x03BD): Again, this is just personal preference, but the curve at the beginning of the Nu (i.e., the upper left) is unusual to me. Imagine writing this character with a chisel point pen (which is what this font is imitating). How would you get a curve like that? Normally, you see a flat serif at the start of a Nu as illustrated in the attached PDF. This is similar to the serif at the start of the Kappa (see above). It is no big deal if this were left as is though, since it does match some other features of other Greek characters.

Psi (0x03C8): The vertical stroke in the middle of this character is thin on top and heavier on the bottom which is just the reverse of how it is normally drawn.

Thank you again for a great font set!

Steve Baugh

Ubuntu Linux 10.04
OpenOffice.org 3.2

Anonymous

 

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Attached Files
file #21035:  FreeFontSuggestions.pdf added by None (20KiB - application/pdf)

 

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    Follow 6 latest changes.

    Date Changed By Updated Field Previous Value => Replaced By
    Thu 03 May 2012 04:09:08 PM UTCStevan_WhiteOpen/ClosedOpen=>Closed
    Thu 01 Dec 2011 12:37:11 PM UTCStevan_WhiteStatusProceeding=>Won't fix
    Thu 29 Jul 2010 05:53:26 PM UTCStevan_WhiteStatusNone=>Proceeding
    Thu 22 Jul 2010 08:07:32 PM UTCStevan_WhiteItem GroupNone=>glyph(s) ugly
      Assigned toNone=>Stevan_White
    Thu 22 Jul 2010 01:39:20 PM UTCNoneAttached File-=>Added FreeFontSuggestions.pdf, #21035

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