bugFree UCS Outline Fonts - Bugs: bug #24393, Cherokee glyphs missing

 
 

bug #24393: Cherokee glyphs missing

Submitted by:  None
Submitted on:  Sat 27 Sep 2008 08:30:44 PM UTC  
 
Category: character rangeSeverity: 3 - Normal
Item Group: glyph(s) missingStatus: Fixed
Privacy: PublicAssigned to: Steve White <Stevan_White>
Open/Closed: ClosedRelease: development

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Sun 23 Nov 2008 10:33:54 PM UTC, comment #16:

Daniel,

I see your last two files (cherokee-charwidth.patch and cherokee-glyphs.sfd), but I'm not sure what to do with them.

cherokee-glyphs.sfd
These seem to be similar glyphs as before, but with different bounding boxes. Should I make the bounding boxes of FreeSerif match these?

cherokee-charwidth.patch
I would apply this myself, if I knew which version of FreeSerif to apply it to. Could you have a look in your SFD file, for the line that begins with "Version:". That should give me the revision number you're working with.

I didn't get back to the kern-copying script... still would be a nice thing to have...

Steve White <Stevan_White>
Project AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Tue 18 Nov 2008 10:03:01 AM UTC, comment #15:

Daniel,

I would like to include a bold version of your Cherokee letters. The FontForge "boldening" operation does not produce acceptable glyphs to my eye.

I wonder, could you make an emboldened version? I know it would take some time...

For the italic, I think the automatic "oblique" will be fine-- I can do that easily myself.

Steve White <Stevan_White>
Project AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Tue 18 Nov 2008 09:52:05 AM UTC, comment #14:

Progress:

I'm working on a script (I have it dumping, but reading in will take more work).

Try this procedure:

Get a new version of FreeSerif.
Open that file and your modified one in the same FontForge session (that's important).
Under Edit->Copy From, make sure Glyph Metadata is checked.
Clear the Cherokee range from the new version.
Select and copy the Cherokee range from your modified file.
Paste at the correct location in the new version.

I think this will copy the widths as well as the kerning info.

Steve White <Stevan_White>
Project AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Tue 18 Nov 2008 08:40:46 AM UTC, comment #13:

Daniel,

1) Auto-Width, using FontForge 20080429
* I select the Cherokee range, open the Auto-Width dialog,
pull down "Selected" for both ranges, type in 30 for width.
Click OK, and it spews warninga about auto-width failure on
a bunch of letters not in the range (e.g. z1xx).

Did a before-and-after; it indeed seems to have changed
many glyphs throughout the font.

So...how did you do this?

2) Kerning
Is the kerning table big? Could you just send me the
changes in text?

Hold on...let me see if I can write a script to pull
kerning info out.

As I said before, kerning is only to be applied as a last
resort. Very few programs use it at all. (done...)

Steve White <Stevan_White>
Project AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Tue 18 Nov 2008 04:27:01 AM UTC, comment #12:

On second thought, I'm attaching the glyphs that I have, set to an auto-width spacing of 35. (Remember that many of these are references.) The following glyph outlines have been changed:

U+13BA is now a reference to U+A654
U+13EE has been redrawn

(file #16874)

Daniel Johnson <daniel_j>
Project Member
Tue 18 Nov 2008 04:04:58 AM UTC, comment #11:

Hi Steve,

Basically what I did was do a FontForge Auto-Width with a spacing of 30. (You might want to bump it up to 35 if that's too close.) Then I created a 'kern' lookup for the Cherokee range, and hand-adjusted any glyph pairs involving large projections to the left or right.

Actually, I've had trouble getting FontForge to do auto-widths on non-LGC ranges. I think I had to copy the glyphs into the Latin range of a blank font to get proper left/right bearings.

If you can't get it to work either, I can email you the left/right bearings that I have, and you can adjust accordingly.

Daniel Johnson <daniel_j>
Project Member
Mon 17 Nov 2008 11:22:01 PM UTC, comment #10:

Daniel,

I'm having some trouble applying your patch. We may have a small problem.

FreeSerif has been under pretty heavy development for the past two months. Your patch doesn't apply very well to recent versions.

I could get an older version and try to apply your patch and merge the differences by hand, but as you know what you did better than I, it might be easier for you to do it.

Let me know how best to proceed.

Sorry for the trouble!

Steve White <Stevan_White>
Project AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Tue 14 Oct 2008 07:38:35 AM UTC, comment #9:

Daniel,

I copied your changes into CVS. I only altered u+13bc, which extended far past its right bound. It looks Great!

Keep sending me enhancements, I'll put them in straightaway.

I'm a little concerned about character spacing. The main thing is that words should not be visually divided by excess letter space; the second is that spacing should look somehow even. For instance, the letters ᎭᎻ look to be a bit widely spaced. This is most obvious when looking at a lot of text in a page.

Of course, this can be adjusted later by kerning, but that should be strictly a last resort, and a fine-tuning. It is much better that the intrinsic spacing be appropriate.

The page with sample images is ideal, thanks!

For more text, there is also the Cherokee Wikipedia
http://chr.wikipedia.org/
e.g.
http://chr.wikipedia.org/wiki/ᎧᎹᎹ
(but relatively little by way of images of text there)

Steve White <Stevan_White>
Project AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Mon 13 Oct 2008 04:50:22 PM UTC, comment #8:

Hi Steven,

I've uploaded a new .sfd file of the glyphs I modified. This includes fixing glyphs with 'ears' to be more in line with the Times-style for Latin and Cyrillic. I also fixed lack of overshoot on baselines and ascenders for curved characters. Finally, I did a few miscellaneous tweaks on a few characters that seemed to have less-than-optimal curves and/or stroke weights.

Note that I did not modify the ears on the letters 'ga' and 'de'. I think these qualify more as hooks than ears.

You can find some Cherokee to render here:
http://cherokeenewtestament.com/0101.html

Regards,
Daniel

(file #16666)

Daniel Johnson <daniel_j>
Project Member
Sun 12 Oct 2008 05:40:49 PM UTC, comment #7:

Daniel,

I just noticed a visual anomoly. The "overshoot" of some of your glyphs with round bottoms isn't enough. Look for instance at latin J. Its lowest point is -14 EM; this is true of most letters with rounded bottoms.

The effect is noticeable when writing Tsa-la-gi:
ᏣᎳᎩ
at around 46 pt. The gi syllable ends much higher than the la syllable.

Steve White <Stevan_White>
Project AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Sun 12 Oct 2008 03:48:46 PM UTC, comment #6:

It's in CVS.

I tweeked about four glyphs. A couple had spurious nodes, a couple more didn't validate in the TrueType version.

It could still use some work: at big point sizes, some of the curves look uneven to me.

Otherwise, it looks great. I would guess it is already quite usable.

Tested by: Made a web page of the whole range (attached) to see if any horizontal spacing was too outrageous. It was fine. Also tossed in some Latin, to see how they looked side-by-side. This was good, too.

(file #16659)

Steve White <Stevan_White>
Project AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Sun 12 Oct 2008 12:15:26 PM UTC, comment #5:

Daniel,

From my mostly technical perspective, they look great!
The contours are clean, the glyphs look fairly balanced. It's distinctive from the Latin while working pretty well alongside it.

I'll try to insert them into FreeSerif this week, and make the references you specified.

The next test would be a proper Unicode text document written in Cherokee. This is and important test of the character spacing (bearing, etc) I could find such a document, but maybe you know of some good ones.

Could you please post or recommend such texts?

Are you, are do you know, a native speaker of Cherokee? It would be really good to get an expert opinion.

Thanks!

Steve White <Stevan_White>
Project AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Wed 08 Oct 2008 02:54:23 AM UTC, comment #4:

Attached is a .sfd document containing the modified Cherokee glyphs. Once again, LBearing/RBearing was only estimated, and you may want to make changes there. These glyphs were patterned on a 19th-century print face; the relative thick/thin weights were adjusted to match those in the Latin/Greek/Cyrillic families. The following glyphs were NOT included because they should be references to the indicated Latin/Greek/Cyrillic characters.

13a2 -> T
13aa -> A
13ab -> J
13ac -> E
13b1 -> 0393
13b3 -> W
13b7 -> M
13bb -> H
13be -> 03f4
13c0 -> G
13c3 -> Z
13cf -> 042c
13d9 -> V
13da -> S
13de -> L
13df -> C
13e2 -> P
13e6 -> K

As always, comments, suggestions and fixes are welcomed.

(file #16626)

Daniel Johnson <daniel_j>
Project Member
Sat 04 Oct 2008 12:05:45 PM UTC, comment #3:

Good to hear from you, Daniel!

I like the idea, and the way you talk about it.

I have downloaded a half dozen Cherokee fonts, but rejected all of them for inclusion in FreeFont.

One thing that worried me about your last post was that you said you had made many glyphs the same as the Latin. I don't think that's generally appropriate. Sure, many are based on Latin and Greek letters, but it is much more important that they work together, and are recognizable as traditional Cherokee.

Beside that, I only ask that they look good alongside the Latin in the same face, in that they have commensurate size, weight, and degree of decoration.

About patches: Version control systems work best in projects that are broken into multiple files, each of which is mostly modified by one person at a time.

Since I'm (sort of furiously) modyfying the CVS, a patch against a particular version might not be easy to apply. It might be easier to take an SFD file (but please include just your new glyphs!)

Steve White <Stevan_White>
Project AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Fri 03 Oct 2008 01:53:25 PM UTC, comment #2:

My apologies, Steve, I did not realize I wasn't logged in. I was the one who submitted these glyphs.

Please ignore the patch I submitted, as I am in the process of refining these characters to be more in line with the classic Cherokee typefaces used in 19th century printing. I should be finished in a few days.

Do you prefer that I submit a patch, or just a separate .sfd file containing the glyphs?

Daniel Johnson <daniel_j>
Project Member
Wed 01 Oct 2008 08:32:19 PM UTC, comment #1:

Hi!

I'll have a look at your patch, but I am not likely to include a whole range of glyphs submitted anonymously. How do I know where it came from, that it is really free software?

Please either make a proper Savannah account, or send me an e-mail.

I'm personally very interested in including Cherokee glyphs. Let's talk!

Steve White <Stevan_White>
Project AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Sat 27 Sep 2008 08:30:44 PM UTC, original submission:

The Unicode range U+13A0-U+13FF is missing in FreeSerif. Attached is a patch to supply glyphs for this range. Of these, the ones that are not references to existing Latin/Greek/Cyrillic were hand-drawn, carefully comparing with the glyphs in the Unicode character-list PDF as well as the (non-100%-free) fonts Digohweli, Aboriginal Sans and Aboriginal Serif.

Caveats: No kerning was done, and the LBearing/RBearing on each glyph was chosen rather arbitrarily.

Anonymous

 

(Note: upload size limit is set to 16384 kB, after insertion of the required escape characters.)

Attach File(s):
   
   
Comment:
   

Attached Files
file #16874:  cherokee-glyphs.sfd added by daniel_j (55KiB - application/octet-stream)
file #16865:  cherokee-charwidth.patch added by daniel_j (116KiB - application/octet-stream - Attached is a patch that fixes letterspacing issues in the Cherokee range and adds a kerning table. I also added serifs to U+13ba and cleaned up some of the curves on U+13ee.)
file #16666:  CherokeeGlyphs.sfd added by daniel_j (39KiB - application/octet-stream)
file #16659:  cherokee.html added by Stevan_White (681B - text/html - test page showing all Cherokee glyphs)
file #16626:  CherokeeGlyphs.sfd added by daniel_j (55KiB - application/octet-stream)
file #16577:  serif-cherokee.patch added by None (60KiB - application/octet-stream)

 

Depends on the following items: None found

Items that depend on this one: None found

 

Carbon-Copy List
  • -unavailable- added by daniel_j (Posted a comment)
  • -unavailable- added by Stevan_White (Posted a comment)
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    Follow 13 latest changes.

    Date Changed By Updated Field Previous Value => Replaced By
    Fri 26 Dec 2008 11:16:57 PM UTCStevan_WhiteStatusFix posted=>Fixed
      Open/ClosedOpen=>Closed
    Tue 18 Nov 2008 04:27:01 AM UTCdaniel_jAttached File-=>Added cherokee-glyphs.sfd, #16874
    Mon 17 Nov 2008 07:22:15 PM UTCdaniel_jAttached File-=>Added cherokee-charwidth.patch, #16865
    Mon 13 Oct 2008 04:50:22 PM UTCdaniel_jAttached File-=>Added CherokeeGlyphs.sfd, #16666
    Sun 12 Oct 2008 03:48:46 PM UTCStevan_WhiteStatusProceeding=>Fix posted
      SummaryCherokee glyphs missing - patch attached=>Cherokee glyphs missing
    Sun 12 Oct 2008 03:48:45 PM UTCStevan_WhiteAttached File-=>Added cherokee.html, #16659
    Sun 12 Oct 2008 12:15:26 PM UTCStevan_WhiteStatusNeed info=>Proceeding
    Wed 08 Oct 2008 02:54:22 AM UTCdaniel_jAttached File-=>Added CherokeeGlyphs.sfd, #16626
    Wed 01 Oct 2008 08:36:38 PM UTCStevan_WhiteStatusNone=>Need info
      Assigned toNone=>Stevan_White
    Sat 27 Sep 2008 08:30:44 PM UTCNoneAttached File-=>Added serif-cherokee.patch, #16577

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