taskSavannah Administration - Tasks: task #10974, Submission of Slipstream

 
 

task #10974: Submission of Slipstream

Submitter:  Dimitris Papavasiliou <dpapavas>
Submitted:  Mon 07 Mar 2011 09:51:34 PM UTC
   
 
Should Start On:  Sun 06 Mar 2011 10:00:00 PM UTC Should be Finished on:  Wed 16 Mar 2011 10:00:00 PM UTC
Category:  Project Approval Priority:  * 5 - Normal
Status:  Done Privacy:  Public
Assigned to:  alexfernandez Open/Closed:  Closed
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Mon 30 May 2011 11:23:17 PM UTC, comment #10: 

Hi Dimitris,

It appears that all issues have been solved now. Welcome, and have fun!



I've approved your project--welcome on board! :-)

You'll receive a mail notification with further instructions shortly.

--
Happy hacking!

Alex Fernandez <alexfernandez>
Mon 04 Apr 2011 07:08:22 PM UTC, comment #9: 

Hello,

Sorry it took so long, it wasn't that big of a deal but I couldn't find the time to work on it.  Anyway I've written a script that exports geometry meshes, image data and sound data into formats that can be further edited/converted with free tools like Blender, SoX and about any free image editor.  I've included the script into Techne's distribution which is the platform on which Slipstream as well as a couple more games run so this should fix the problem for all of them.  You can check out the scripts in Techne's CVS tree which you can find here:

http://cvs.savannah.gnu.org/viewvc/techne/scripts/export.lua?root=techne&view=log

There's also documentation on how to use the script in Techne's manual page.  Let me know if there's anything else you need.

Dimitris

PS: If you want to try it out for yourself you'll need to download and install Techne as well as a game to get some data to try it on.  You can get Billiards for example here:

https://savannah.nongnu.org/projects/billiards/

Dimitris Papavasiliou <dpapavas>
Wed 09 Mar 2011 12:58:46 AM UTC, comment #8: 


> Uh, "closed"?.


By "more closed" I mean "less free" since the user is not denied the right to use, edit etc the media but I don't make it easy for her either.  Anyway since we're agreed I'll write the scripts to convert these back into usable formats and get back to you.

Dimitris

Dimitris Papavasiliou <dpapavas>
Wed 09 Mar 2011 12:38:34 AM UTC, comment #7: 

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2011-03-08 in GNU Savannah task #10974: "Submission of Slipstream".

Glad to see you appreciate the free software philosphy.

> Basically the two files are identical.  The only difference is that
> they have different headers.  So my script form differs as much from
> a PNG file as a TIFF file does.


The files generated by the script, you mean?.  If it's just a
difference between image formats without loss of information
(Comments, alpha channel, etc.) it's fine.

> The only reason my script file could be considered more closed than
> any other image file would be that there are no readily available
> tools to convert it into another format or import it into editing
> software.


Uh, "closed"?.

> So I think that's the way to go.  If you agree I'll start working on
> the scripts and get back to you when I'm ready.


Yes.

Thanks you.
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Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc>
Tue 08 Mar 2011 10:48:58 PM UTC, comment #6: 

Hi,

>  In general we do not believe it is wrong to develop a program and
>  not release it.  There are occasions when a program is so useful
>  that withholding it from release is treating humanity badly.
>  However, most programs are not that important, so not releasing them
>  is not particularly harmful.  Thus, there is no conflict between the
>  development of private or custom software and the principles of the
>  free software movement.
>
> However, we would be opposed if what you meant is you released such
> code but not as free software; I.e: as proprietary software.


Well we can agree there I think.  I would be opposed to myself if I had meant that but the only way I could imagine myself writing proprietary software would be as a result of being forced, to make a living etc.

> If this PNG image is the source code form I think it's fine to include
> the script to extract it instead of the image itself.  Excuse me, from
> your former message it wasn't clear to me whether this is the case.


Basically the two files are identical.  The only difference is that they have different headers.  So my script form differs as much from a PNG file as a TIFF file does.  The only reason my script file could be considered more closed than any other image file would be that there are no readily available tools to convert it into another format or import it into editing software.

> On the technical side: Have you considered the other way?.  To include
> the PNG images and a script to make the Lua string.


Yes and although this approach would work just as well for imagery it won't work for geometry data for example.  Conversion of Blender models into a format which my engine can use happens through a script called from within Blender.  So apart from the fact that you'd need to depend on Blender to be able to compile the data I doubt it could be made in a non-manual way.  So this is clearly impractical.  On the other hand exporting the data into a format which can be imported into a number of modelling packages including Blender would be relatively easy.

So I think that's the way to go.  If you agree I'll start working on the scripts and get back to you when I'm ready.

Regards,
Dimitris

Dimitris Papavasiliou <dpapavas>
Tue 08 Mar 2011 10:17:38 PM UTC, comment #5: 

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2011-03-08 in GNU Savannah task #10974: "Submission of Slipstream".

Hello.

> I have written a lot of code until now for example but have not
> released all of it as free software simply because I did not
> consider it worthy of doing so.  [...]


- From http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/categories.html#PrivateSoftware:

  In general we do not believe it is wrong to develop a program and
  not release it.  There are occasions when a program is so useful
  that withholding it from release is treating humanity badly.
  However, most programs are not that important, so not releasing them
  is not particularly harmful.  Thus, there is no conflict between the
  development of private or custom software and the principles of the
  free software movement.

However, we would be opposed if what you meant is you released such
code but not as free software; I.e: as proprietary software.

> both the Lua script and a png image are totally equivalent,
> containing the same information


If this PNG image is the source code form I think it's fine to include
the script to extract it instead of the image itself.  Excuse me, from
your former message it wasn't clear to me whether this is the case.

On the technical side: Have you considered the other way?.  To include
the PNG images and a script to make the Lua string.

Thanks for your understanding.
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Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc>
Tue 08 Mar 2011 09:16:06 PM UTC, comment #4: 


> Then please do so, add them to the tarball and update the tarball.
>
> It seems you're confused with a case of circular reasoning:
>
> * The files are not useful because they're in a Techne-specific
>  format.
>
> * Publishing the Techne-specific format (Rather or in addition to
>  source code) is justified because these files are not useful
>
> Again, access to the source code is a precondition for free software.
> By denying the source code we deny the user some of his rights, please
> see http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-free.html.  Whether the files
> are "temporary" or someone (I.g. You or me) consider/don't consider
> them "generally useful" is irrelevant to the issue.


I have to admit that my wording has not been particularly effective on this matter.  The reason I do not consider these media to be of use to anyone is because I'm not satisfied with their quality and this is the reason why I have not released them in a more usable format.  I have written a lot of code until now for example but have not released all of it as free software simply because I did not consider it worthy of doing so.  This is perhaps a mistake on my part but I'm not sure it would be beneficial to the goals of free software if the body of available free software was to be littered with countless pieces of trivial code with no use.  This is a theoretical argument and not entirely relevant to the situation at hand but I'm mentioning it because it is an interesting aspect that I may not have given the proper thought.

And now on the topic, my initial idea was to release these temporary media in the form they're now which although not easily usable is usable nevertheless.  If proper media was to be constructed either by myself or by someone else these would then be distributed in proper form and in the proper place.  For instance I would consider it more useful to post the art in a site such as www.opengameart.org where it would be accesible to many more potentially interested parties.  Nevertheless I have to admit that you have a point.  While I do not deny the user any rights either on purpose or by mistake I do not make it as easy as possible for him/her to excersise some of them.  This is a matter of some importance too I suppose.

I do not consider it a good idea to distribute the original media files in the data tarball though.  It would simply add a lot of redundant data (in the sense that both the Lua script and a png image are totally equivalent, containing the same information) that would be of no use the the game itself.  In my opinion the data tarball should contain the files needed in order for the game to run and nothing more.  There should be a way to get the original media for the ones who need them.  So there are two options:

a) Distribute another tarball with the original files.
b) Distribute a script with the data tarball that would allow anyone whishing to do so to convert the lua scripts back into usable files easy to import into Blender or the GIMP for instance.

I would find the second approach preferable because it would reduce the bookkeeping and packaging effort on my part for each new release and it would also minimize the wasted diskspace and bandwidth on your part.  The script(s) would be advertised in the README file of course and would only depend on free software, that is Lua and/or Techne, that would already be installed without imposing additional dependencies.

Let me know what you think.

Dimitris

Dimitris Papavasiliou <dpapavas>
Tue 08 Mar 2011 06:31:05 PM UTC, comment #3: 

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2011-03-08 in GNU Savannah task #10974: "Submission of Slipstream".

> Regarding the media files themselves. They are distributed in source
> form in a way. The reason why I doubt they'll be useful to anyone is
> that they have been converted to a format very specific to Techne
> which is actually a string in Lua with all the binary data of the
> image or geometry model.


"in a way" is misleading.  Either they're in source code form or
they're not.  "Binary data" encoded as a Lua string is clearly not the
preferred form of the work for making modifications to it.

> It would be theoretically easy for anyone to convert it back but I
> suppose the way to distribute the media data itself, if they're
> going to be useful to anyone, is in its original form as XCF or
> Blender files. I would do that if I [...]


Then please do so, add them to the tarball and update the tarball.

It seems you're confused with a case of circular reasoning:

  • The files are not useful because they're in a Techne-specific

  format.

  • Publishing the Techne-specific format (Rather or in addition to

  source code) is justified because these files are not useful

Again, access to the source code is a precondition for free software.
By denying the source code we deny the user some of his rights, please
see http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/why-free.html.  Whether the files
are "temporary" or someone (I.g. You or me) consider/don't consider
them "generally useful" is irrelevant to the issue.

> On a sidenote and not that I disagree with your strategy regarding
> copyright notices etc. but just out of curiosity. Have there been
> many cases where these copyrights have actually been useful in
> court, or is it just a precaution?


Indeed, there have been cases.  For instance see "FSF Settles Suit
Against Cisco": http://www.fsf.org/news/2009-05-cisco-settlement.html.
However usually the GNU GPL can be made effective with an explanion of
the issue, avoiding the need to raise the issue in a court; e.g.
http://clisp.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/clisp/clisp/doc/Why-CLISP-is-under-GPL.

Regards and thanks in advance.
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Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc>
Tue 08 Mar 2011 03:43:37 PM UTC, comment #2: 

Hello,

I've uploaded the data tarball using your upload window.  Here's the URL:

http://savannah.gnu.org/submissions_uploads/slipstream-data-0.1.tar.bz2

Regarding the media files themselves.  They are distributed in source form in a way.  The reason why I doubt they'll be useful to anyone is that they have been converted to a format very specific to Techne which is actually a string in Lua with all the binary data of the image or geometry model.  It would be theoretically easy for anyone to convert it back but I suppose the way to distribute the media data itself, if they're going to be useful to anyone, is in its original form as XCF or Blender files.  I would do that if I considered them generally useful which I don't since I don't really like them myself :).  They're just temporary until I find help from a decent artist.

On a sidenote and not that I disagree with your strategy regarding copyright notices etc. but just out of curiosity.  Have there been many cases where these copyrights have actually been useful in court, or is it just a precaution?

Dimitris Papavasiliou <dpapavas>
Tue 08 Mar 2011 02:10:19 AM UTC, comment #1: 

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2011-03-07 in GNU Savannah task #10974: "Submission of Slipstream".

Hi.

I'm evaluating the project you submitted for approval in GNU Savannah.
You can reach the rest Savannah hackers (Staff) in this list:
http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/savannah-hackers-public.

We wish to review all your files, even if they're not functional, to
catch potential legal issues early.

For instance, if some of your files cannot carry such notices
(e.g. binary files), then you should add a README file (Usually in the
same directory) containing the copyright and license notices.  Check
http://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/html_node/Copyright-Notices.html for
further information.  A proper example of README can be found at
http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/tree/etc/images/README.

Please include a (perhaps temporary) URL pointing to the rest of files
you intend to host in GNU Savannah (The "data", tarball for instance).
Alternatively, you can forward the code to me by email or attach it to
this tracker.

> The texture and geometry dataset [...] although due to the format

probably of no use to anyone.

If you want to host object code you should upload its source code too,
otherwise it wouldn't be free software
(http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html).  It's noteworthy to
recall what source code is.  From the GNU General Public License:

  The "source code" for a work means the preferred form of the work
  for making modifications to it.  "Object code" means any non-source
  form of a work.

Hence, there is no reason why the "dataset" or couldn't be usefull for
someone else.

Regards.

Item status changes:

Assigned to -> marioxcc
Status -> In progress
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Mario Castelán Castro <marioxcc>
Mon 07 Mar 2011 09:51:34 PM UTC, original submission:  

A new project has been registered at Savannah
This project account will remain inactive until a site admin approves or discards the registration.


Registration Administration


While this item will be useful to track the registration process, approving or discarding the registration must be done using the specific Group Administration page, accessible only to site administrators, effectively logged as site administrators (superuser):



Registration Details


  • Name: Slipstream
  • System Name:  slipstream
  • Type: non-GNU software & documentation
  • License: GNU General Public License v2 or later (The texture and geometry dataset has either been created entirely by myself or composited from raw material that is either licensed under the GPL or in the public domain.  The dataset is therefore (although due to the format probably of no use to anyone) licensed under the GPL.)





Description:

Slipstream is a racing vehicle simulator aiming for physical
accuracy and realism and hopefully at some point pleasing graphics.
Its main pupose is to cover the relative (or in the case of free
software absolute) shortage of high-fidelity motorcycle racing
simulators so initially only a large displacement sports motorcycle
model is implemented although implementation of car models should be
relatively straightforward and is planned for the future.



Other Software Required:

Techne, GPL, www.nongnu.org/techne


Other Comments:

I'm only uploading the source tarball, let me know if you need to see the data tarball as well.


Tarball URL:

http://savannah.gnu.org/submissions_uploads/slipstream-0.1.tar.gz


Dimitris Papavasiliou <dpapavas>

 

(Note: upload size limit is set to 16384 kB, after insertion of the required escape characters.)

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    Date Changed by Updated Field Previous Value => Replaced by
    2011-05-30 alexfernandez StatusIn Progress Done
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        Open/ClosedOpen Closed
    2011-03-08 marioxcc StatusNone In Progress
        Assigned toNone marioxcc

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