mainSavannah Administration - Support: sr #103855, Mailing list creation for avr-libc

 
 

sr #103855: Mailing list creation for avr-libc

Submitter:  Joerg Wunsch <joerg_wunsch>
Submitted:  Wed 02 Feb 2005 01:07:45 PM UTC
   
 
Category:  Savannah mail server Priority:  5 - Normal
Severity:  3 - Normal Status:  Done
Privacy:  Public Assigned to:  Beuc
Operating System:  None Open/Closed:  Closed
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Sun 13 Feb 2005 09:36:09 AM UTC, comment #8: 

Lists created.

When you have the lists ready, open a new support request (so that any Savannah hacker can take care of it). The more simple is to have a (private) URL where to download the archives in the Mailman box.

The archive system filters e-mail adresses and mboxes are not available via HTTP.

Sylvain Beucler <Beuc>
Thu 10 Feb 2005 09:28:24 PM UTC, comment #7: 

xref: savannah-admin task #3737:  Submission of "Super-Project" for AVR-related projects

Joerg Wunsch <joerg_wunsch>
Thu 10 Feb 2005 09:12:25 PM UTC, comment #6: 

Ah OK, that was easy to change then.

I know that commercial doesn't mean proprietary, but we
explicitly intend that avr-libc can be used in proprietary,
closed-source projects.  This is due to the target `market'
of what you're going to do with microcontrollers.  If you
develop for these controllers, most of your value is in the
software you write, so we wanted to impose as few restrictions
as possible about the way the people are going to use it.
(Even LGPL is not an option, as reverse-engineering object
code is a simple task given the rather small code that fits
into these devices.)

Feedback shows that this concept appears to work well.
People accept it, both in hobbyist applications (where they
enjoy the low cost, compared to expensive commercial compilers
which we are somehow competing here), as well as in the
industry where people enjoy the source code availability.
We often get more feedback from our userbase than we could
handle. ;-)

As for the old list archive, I'll ask the guy who runs the
current list to send them to you.  He needs to take the
existing list server down then in order to ensure the
archives will be complete (so noone can post to the old
lists anymore after the archives have been transferred), so
it would be nice if the new lists can be established rather
quickly then.  Where should he send the existing archives
to?  As they are raw archives with all email addresses, they
should be handled with some care, and preferrably not appear
somewhere where they can be downloaded from unauthorized
people.

I'll see to find out about the procedure to request a new
project, never did that before. ;-)

Joerg Wunsch <joerg_wunsch>
Thu 10 Feb 2005 03:12:04 PM UTC, comment #5: 

Sorry for not being clear. I was mainly talking about your webpages:

"AVR Libc is an open source project"
"Together, avr-binutils, avr-gcc, and avr-libc form the heart of the Opensource toolchain"
"compatible with most Opensource licenses like the GPL"
"closed-source commercial applications"

Also note that commercial does not mean proprietary.

Free Software means that users have certain freedoms; it does not mean zero price.  "Commercial" means "associated with business"; a commercial program may be free or non-free, depending on its license.  So it is a mistake to treat "free" and "commercial" as contraries.  When a business develops free software, that is free commercial software :)

Maybe you are not the one who wrote this, but make sure the webpages are fixed.


The lists are a separate matter. I just need the archives in a tarball so as to import them.

As for the 'avr' project, just register it the usual way and we'll approve it and attach the mailing lists there.

Sylvain Beucler <Beuc>
Wed 09 Feb 2005 10:12:02 PM UTC, comment #4: 

Simply replace "opensource" by "Free Software", please.

If you tell me what you need exactly (formal description
of the audience and topic of the lists?), I can write up
something else, the initial request wasn't meant to be any
kind of formal language at all.

Also, if you prefer, we can make it explicit that the target
audience for the avr-chat list is basically the same as for
the avr-gcc-list (users of the Free Software toolchain for
Atmel AVR microcontrollers), only the topic of the discussions
is different.

Joerg Wunsch <joerg_wunsch>
Wed 09 Feb 2005 08:03:39 PM UTC, comment #3: 

I'm discussing the wording issue with the FSF.

I confirm we do not want to advertise the Open Source movement, so I'd ask you to please change the references.

Aside from the arguments presented in the URL, "open source" is not especially clearer than "free software", allowing eg people from Microsoft to confuse "Shared Source" and free software in their speeches when discussing the Rotor .Net implementation. Another example of such confusion is GraphViz, claiming to be open source on its homepage while it's nor free software nor OSI-compliant.

Waiting for this issue to be clearly discussed and fixed, you can prepare the archives to be imported.

I am a deep feeling that I already wrote this last sentence, so I suppose I began writing it, and didn't post it in this tracker. Apologizes for the delay that caused.

Sylvain Beucler <Beuc>
Thu 03 Feb 2005 08:17:48 PM UTC, comment #2: 

I don't mind whether we create an `avr' super-project in order
to match the naming policy.  If you want to do this, just
start with me as the admin, and I'll invite the other admins
of avr-libc as well.

I don't care that much about the distinction between
opensource and Free Software, so both is fine with me.  I got
used to `opensource' as some commercial enterprises
occassionally give out some of their products without a fee,
and then call this ``freeware'', so I thought opensource makes
it very explicit that the source code is available.

But as avr-libc has a BSD license and is already accepted
for savannah's policy, and the remaining parts of the
toolchain all come from the GNU collection, this is all
fine by me.

Joerg Wunsch <joerg_wunsch>
Thu 03 Feb 2005 05:51:53 PM UTC, comment #1: 

To respect our naming policy, maybe we could create a 'avr' project at nongnu and attach the 2 mailing lists there. We are also able to import mailing lists archives.

However, note that Savannah supports projects of the Free Software movement, not projects of the Open Source movement, as referenced in this request and the avr-libc webpage.

We are careful about ethical issues; while Open Source as defined by its founders means something pretty close to Free Software, it's frequently misunderstood.  For more information, please see http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-software-for-freedom.html.

Would you mind changing references to opensource to free software?

Sylvain Beucler <Beuc>
Wed 02 Feb 2005 01:07:45 PM UTC, original submission:  

I'd like to get another two mailing lists created on behalf of the
avr-libc (nongnu.org) project.

As this is merely a migration of existing lists currently running on a
private machine in NZ to some well-connected, well-maintained public
server, we'd like to keep the current names "avr-gcc-list" and
"avr-chat", even though it doesn't match the naming conventions that
would apply to the avr-libc project.  The avr-libc project already
runs an avr-libc-dev list intented for developers, while the new lists
are merely intented for users of the opensource toolchain for Atmel
AVR microcontrollers.  Traditionally, the entire toolchain has been
tied to the term "AVR-GCC".  AVR-GCC is not a project of its own
though, it is merely the GNU compiler configured for the AVR target
(the changes have been merged into the GCC codebase long ago, so no
separate public project is needed=.  avr-libc is the closest project
of its own that somehow serves as an `umbrella' for the entire
toolchain as well (e.g. we document how to use all the tools together
in our avr-libc documentation).

The idea behind two lists is to separate technical questions and
discussion to AVR-GCC (and the entire toolchain) from not-so-technical
discussions.

If the mailing list creation is possible that way, we'd also like to
ask whether the already existing email archives on the current mailing
list server (avr1.org) could be migrated.  The lists are currently
alredy run via GNU mailman, and the current list maintainer told me
that he can provide the full mbox files for importing (less than a
megabyte in total).  Migration of the userbase will then be done by
means of a mass-invitation which can be handled by the list admins.

Joerg Wunsch <joerg_wunsch>

 

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Follow 3 latest changes.

Date Changed by Updated Field Previous Value => Replaced by
2005-02-13 Beuc StatusNone Done
    Open/ClosedOpen Closed
2005-02-03 Beuc Assigned toNone Beuc

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