bugFree UCS Outline Fonts - Bugs: bug #43289, Serif: Cyrillic letterforms missing

 
 

bug #43289: Serif: Cyrillic letterforms missing

Submitted by:  Hsing-yen He <hammerandsickle>
Submitted on:  Wed 24 Sep 2014 04:43:04 AM UTC  
 
Category: individual character(s)Severity: 1 - Wish
Item Group: glyph(s) missingStatus: Postponed
Privacy: PublicAssigned to: Steve White <Stevan_White>
Open/Closed: OpenRelease: 2012-05-03

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Tue 28 Jun 2016 07:21:59 AM UTC, comment #33:

Hi Steve,

Unicode 9.0 has a new range for Cyrillic, but they were not appeared in FreeSans. Since Unicode has published a technical note for Church Slavonic, I think you should making it available in both FreeSans and FreeSerif, to avoid some unexpected results as "Tofu".

Hsing-yen He <hammerandsickle>
Fri 16 Oct 2015 04:23:07 PM UTC, comment #32:

As this dissertation showing, Cyrillic capital Uk performanced as all-caps style, like latin letter DZ, DŽ, LJ, NJ. But since Cyrillic range have only one glyph for capital Uk, so the all-caps form can be generating via OT feature.

Anonymous
Thu 01 Oct 2015 09:08:45 AM UTC, comment #31:

Steve,

I can see the He Hsing-yen's effects, but I feel that's not perfect, so I made my draft with my pleasure, which looks better. Feel happy to receive it. :-)

Regards.

(file #35020)

Anonymous
Thu 01 Oct 2015 05:46:21 AM UTC, comment #30:

Thank you, Steve, they're so useful, you made convenience to Church Slavonic Wikipedia reader/editor.

Anonymous
Wed 30 Sep 2015 09:36:11 PM UTC, comment #29:

I have added Hsing-Yen's latest glyphs for U+A640-3 to FreeSerifItalic. They will be in the next build.

Thanks!

Steve White <Stevan_White>
Project AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Wed 30 Sep 2015 02:50:49 AM UTC, comment #28:

Hi,

I'm an editor of Wikipedia, I'm using Windows to make contributions for Wikipedia. I have edited some of pages from Church Slavonic Wikipedia, in their articles some notices in certion sections markes as italic, some of key words markes as bold, these texts looks very well for me due to Segoe UI support them, but I think other computer may will performanced worse than me, because there is a few fonts giving fully support for Church Slavonic letters, or lakes some of letterform about Church Slavonic. I have copied these text to investigated, found these letters lakes their letterforms in FreeSerif: ꙁ, ꙃ, ꙑ, ꙗ. So I suggest that you can adding these letter in all faces of FreeSerif. For other archaic letters, I think you can just adding bold glyph, because these letters were refered in English Wikipedia articles, and they're merked as bold.

As I know, Church Slavonic is used by the Orthodox Church in Bulgaria, Poland, Russia, Serbia, Montenegro, Republic of Macedonia and Ukraine, although this language inherited several archaic orthorgraphy from Old Church Slavonic, it looks more normalized than OCS, as Church Slavonic Wikipedia used. So I think you can just giving more typographic support for Church Slavonic.

For non-Slavonic letters, you can try to adding bold glyphs firstly, then you can adding italic and bold italic glyphs if you got enough materials to describe them.

Best regards,
Great Brightstar

Anonymous
Tue 22 Sep 2015 04:22:36 PM UTC, comment #27:

I have investigated some materials in (New) Church Slavonic, I found although it successed OCS orthography, not all early Cyrillic letters are still used. These letters looks the same as OCS, but except reversed Dze, Iota, Djerv, and alternate form of Yuses as in Cyrillic Extended-B, thus they don’t consider more optimization, especially for adding more faces. So currently adding another faces for Zemlja and Dzělo is enough.

http://www.manu.edu.mk/cal/CAL/004_Seg_Staroslovenski.pdf
http://www.webcitation.org/5QBt728BO
http://www.orthlib.info/

Hsing-yen He <hammerandsickle>
Thu 17 Sep 2015 08:09:32 AM UTC, comment #26:

Hi Steve,

For Cyrillic Extended-A, I require these characters because recently I have noticed that combined Cyrillic Ef was available in FreeSerif Italic, which was introduced in the new version of Unicode, so I made this suggestion.

File #34906 and file #34907 are printed in OCS, they were submited for comment #21 , I was also tried to s ubmit some materials in Church Slavonic, but I’m failed. The (New) Church Slavonic is the successor of Old Church Slavonic, this is a living language, and used by the Orthodox Church in some Eastern Europe countries. I made these proposal because I found some articles (https://tinyurl.com/p2kft5h https://tinyurl.com/ncngw9u ) in Church Slavonic Wikipedia is easy to encounter the screen rending issue due to technical limits, especially for these letters: Zemlya, Dzelo, Yery (with back Yer), Iotified A, they‘re easy to become mojibake when they appearing in some texts marked in italic, so I made proposal for them.

Regards.

Hsing-yen He <hammerandsickle>
Thu 17 Sep 2015 06:57:43 AM UTC, comment #25:

Hi Hsing-yen,

The images are very beautiful, and I know they're on topic -- but what exactly should I look for in them? Could you perhaps make new copies, with the important letters circled?

I don't understand your comment about Cyrillic Extended-A. Are you saying something is wrong? I looked at the letters, and they seem to be as they should be.

About italic: At this point, again, the projects efforts really must be concentrated on living languages. And Old Church Slavonic was likely never printed in "italic" -- and some of these letters only occured in specific periods of history -- so this is really not a high priority feature.

Thanks!

Steve White <Stevan_White>
Project AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Thu 17 Sep 2015 01:32:39 AM UTC, comment #24:

Hi,

In Cyrillic Extended-A, I found these combining characters should following exsisted glyphs in FreeSerif Italic: Es-Te, monograph Uk, iotified A.

Hsing-yen He <hammerandsickle>
Tue 15 Sep 2015 01:36:02 AM UTC, comment #23:

Hi Steve,

I know these problem, I’m sorry that I know a little about FontForge. These letters are just submited as draft. These letters are very common in Church Slavonic Wikipedia, but they’re also appearing in some sentences marked in italic, so they will become mojibake sometimes. This problem was also appeared in Yery (with bak yer) and Iotated A, but they’re resolved.

Hsing-yen He <hammerandsickle>
Mon 14 Sep 2015 06:41:03 PM UTC, comment #22:

Hi Hsing-yen,

The letters are pretty, but they won't do. First, the small letters are substantially higher than other small letters in the font. Also they appear to be more slanted.

I can probably show you how to do this so it is acceptable in the project, but not in a bug report, please. Just write me at the e-mail address you find on this site.

Thanks!

Steve White <Stevan_White>
Project AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Tue 08 Sep 2015 02:21:18 PM UTC, comment #21:

Well, as I know, the earlier materials don't distinguish between capital and lowercase letters, sometimes they looks like all-caps style, sometimes the manuscript letters were rendered larger for emphasis, or in various decorative initial and nameplate forms. This traditional typesetting standards only remain in use in Church Slavonic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Cyrillic_alphabet#Gallery
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:National_History_Museum,_Sofia,_Bulgaria_20090405_276.JPG

Hsing-yen He <hammerandsickle>
Tue 08 Sep 2015 06:41:49 AM UTC, comment #20:

Hi Hsing-yen,

Has Old Church Slavonic ever been printed in all caps? If so, I'll consider it. Otherwise, this is a fanciful adornment on a dead language. I really want to focus efforts on living languages.

Steve White <Stevan_White>
Project AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Tue 08 Sep 2015 03:16:06 AM UTC, comment #19:

I think the capital ukŭ should have case-sencetive form (“case”). In this case, Ѹ will become ОУ in an all-caps text.

Hsing-yen He <hammerandsickle>
Mon 29 Jun 2015 05:39:58 PM UTC, comment #18:

Hi,

There is another proposal providing for the previous comment.

Cheers

(file #34338)

Hsing-yen He <hammerandsickle>
Thu 25 Jun 2015 06:14:25 AM UTC, comment #17:

Hi,

Thank you, I have also made a proposal for FreeSerif Italic if you want to add support for Church Slavonic texts, see file #34208

Cheers

Hsing-yen He <hammerandsickle>
Wed 24 Jun 2015 06:19:16 PM UTC, comment #16:

Hi, Hsing-yen,

Thanks for your concern.

Let me explain our perspective. It's quite obvious which letters are missing. Actually making them takes a lot of effort. In fact, outside of the modern Cyrillic letters, all those letters were drawn or constructed by FreeFont contributors.

In fact, we are pretty happy to provide some support for these letters, especially because (as you point out) support for them is rather rare.

It is not an oversight that not all letters are supported in all faces. It is a decision of where to expend limited resources.

If we hear of a specific application where a specific letter is really needed, we are likely to take that up, and provide the letter.

Steve White <Stevan_White>
Project AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Wed 24 Jun 2015 05:32:34 PM UTC, comment #15:

Hi,

I will added for comment #5 that note only Komi letters are missing in the styled FreeFont faces, Church Slavonic also have missing faces, some websites that using Church Slavonic may require these styles, but only a few fonts providing support.

https://cu.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BF%D1%94%D0%B4%D1%97%EA%99%97

Hsing-yen He <hammerandsickle>
Wed 28 Jan 2015 11:14:14 PM UTC, comment #14:

Hi Hsing-yen,

I'm afraid I'm a little lost here.

The report started with some missing letters styled faces, letters that are used in specific languages written in Cyrillic. We know the letters are missing, and we know it would take days to draw them (etc.) The reason this report is postponed is that no specific need was indicated for the styled forms.

But then you talked about stylistic forms of other letters in another font... Really I guess it should be a different feature request.

Our aim in this project is to provide a font useful for the display of text, in as many languages as we can. The Cyrillic variants we have chosen represent (what we judge to be) real typographic trends. To print Serbian in Russian letters looks weird and ugly to people accustomed to the traditional letters. This is why those stylistic variants are present. (Likewise with Devanagari variants, etc.)

On the other hand, we can't hope to reflect every historical stylistic trend in the one font. Besides it isn't our aim.

Now, as you pointed out, Garamond has done some interesting things in this direction. Why not use Garamond? This is after all why we have many fonts!

Steve White <Stevan_White>
Project AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Wed 28 Jan 2015 03:42:14 AM UTC, comment #13:

These triangular variants is an older variant, its top is pointed, some historical document (such as the specimens of the civil script produced for Peter I) can found these glyphs, since mid 19th century, the modern glyph is appeared.

Hsing-yen He <hammerandsickle>
Wed 28 Jan 2015 03:09:20 AM UTC, comment #12:

I do not think of copy others' purpose.

Hsing-yen He <hammerandsickle>
Tue 27 Jan 2015 11:10:03 PM UTC, comment #11:

You write:

"These three letters' variant is a general variant, using "ss01" tag, not for local. Some fonts (such as Gill Sans and Garamond in Windows) may have these glyphs."

I am not sure what you're trying to say here.

Do you mean FreeFont should copy the choice of "ss01" as used in some other fonts for this purpose? In that case, the answer is 'no'. There is no standard regarding this, and frankly, we considered and tried the options, and found that the local activation was superior, for several reasons.

Again, we do no copy stylistic choices of other fonts.

Steve White <Stevan_White>
Project AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Tue 27 Jan 2015 04:11:30 AM UTC, comment #10:

These three letters' variant is a general variant, using "ss01" tag, not for local. Some fonts (such as Gill Sans and Garamond in Windows) may have these glyphs.

Hsing-yen He <hammerandsickle>
Mon 26 Jan 2015 09:12:13 PM UTC, comment #9:

Hi Hsing-yen,

OpenType font variants for Cyrillic, especially for Bulgarian and Serbian/Macedonian, were added a long time ago.
Have a look at the usage.txt file.

Yes, it's hard to find a clean environment in which to see what letters are really in a font. XeLaTeX does pretty well though.

Cheers!

Steve White <Stevan_White>
Project AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Mon 26 Jan 2015 11:49:03 AM UTC, comment #8:

Oh ~ I open the file in text editor and search "font" found no TNR glyps, sorry.

Hsing-yen He <hammerandsickle>
Mon 26 Jan 2015 08:41:06 AM UTC, comment #7:

Hi Steve,

I also think Cyrillic letter De, El, Lje can add triangular form as alternative variant, of which El looks like "turned V", these glyphs can be switch by OpenType feature. George Duffner published a PDF to demonstrate how to switch this variant.

https://github.com/georgd/EB-Garamond/blob/master/specimen/Specimen.pdf?raw=true

Then I admit I found other fonts is really mixed up in this sample file now. From UA764 to UA76B there are some glyphs from Segoe UI in upright type, and letter Ha with stroke is from Open Sans in cursive type. And you are right, some Russian minority ethnicity's letter in cursive type is from TNR, I checked.

Hsing-yen He <hammerandsickle>
Sun 25 Jan 2015 05:19:50 PM UTC, comment #6:

Thanks for your remind, I have not pay attention to TNR at that time, I just have noticed that Wikipedia article mentioned Segoe UI for Windows 8 is notable for having complete support for the archaic Cyrillic letters, so I made a sample to compare with Segoe UI and FreeSerif.

Hsing-yen He <hammerandsickle>
Sun 25 Jan 2015 09:35:00 AM UTC, comment #5:

Hi Hsing-yen,

Very well. We are aware of the missing styled letters, but as I said, unless there is a pressing need for them, they will have to wait.

The most recent version of Times New Roman (regular) I have, 5.09, dated 2010, is from a Windows 7. It does not have many of the characters you refer to. It has Cyrillic up to U0503, then U051A-D, and no others from that range. FreeFont (regular) now supports the entire base Cyrillic range, and therefore supports a lot more Cyrillic than TNR. Perhaps you are seeing letters from some other font, not Times New Roman.

But yes, there are some Cyrillic letters for Komi in TNR that are missing in the styled FreeFont faces. It will take time.

Thanks for your input!

Steve White <Stevan_White>
Project AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Sat 24 Jan 2015 01:04:36 PM UTC, comment #4:

Sorry for my oversight. I send a sample PDF just now.

Hsing-yen He <hammerandsickle>
Fri 26 Sep 2014 10:15:54 PM UTC, comment #3:

I think your last comment was meant for your other report.

My question remains: do you have a pressing need for these letters?

I ask, because it takes real time to make letters, tese letters were deemed to be extremely rare in real use, and there are other pressing problems with the font.

Thanks!

Steve White <Stevan_White>
Project AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Thu 25 Sep 2014 04:25:26 AM UTC, comment #2:

Sorry for my mistake. I mean in Windows 8+ FreeSerif display i̍ as ı̇̍ (vertical line positioned over the dot), but Linux Libertine and SIL fonts do not have this bug.

Hsing-yen He <hammerandsickle>
Wed 24 Sep 2014 05:31:02 AM UTC, comment #1:

Hello He,

Yes, those letterforms are missing in the styled faces etc -- it's only a matter of time and effort versus how many people need them.

May I ask, for what purpose do you use these letters?

Steve White <Stevan_White>
Project AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Wed 24 Sep 2014 04:43:04 AM UTC, original submission:

I used the latest stable version of FreeSerif, But when compare with Times New Roman, I found FreeSerif Bold, Italic and Bold Italic do not support some of Cyrillic letterforms in U+04FA-050F, U+0514-0519, U+0520-0527.

Hsing-yen He <hammerandsickle>

 

(Note: upload size limit is set to 16384 kB, after insertion of the required escape characters.)

Attach File(s):
   
   
Comment:
   

Attached Files
file #35317:  Expaination for comment #31.png added by None (13KiB - image/png)
file #35020:  Zemlya and Dzelo.png added by None (28KiB - image/png)
file #34906:  Apostol_(Ivan_Fedorov__1564)_2.jpg added by hammerandsickle (323KiB - image/jpeg - All of this images can be found in there, they’re earlier than modrn Cyrillic letterform, which dated back to Peter I’s reform: https://bit.ly/1Li0I4z Ps: Ivan Fyorodov is a very printer in Moskow, he was called the father of Eastern Slavonic printing.)
file #34907:  Hrabar-On-letters-L40.jpg added by hammerandsickle (171KiB - image/jpeg - All of this images can be found in there, they’re earlier than modrn Cyrillic letterform, which dated back to Peter I’s reform: https://bit.ly/1Li0I4z Ps: Ivan Fyorodov is a very printer in Moskow, he was called the father of Eastern Slavonic printing.)
file #34876:  FreeSerif_Italic,_with_modified_Zemlya_and_Dzelo.7z added by hammerandsickle (899KiB - application/octet-stream - I have redesigned Zemlja and Dzělo in lowercase, inspired by Latin letter “z with hook”. I think they’re more closely to the principle of Times-Italic.)
file #34361:  FreeSerif Italic, with draft for Zemlja and Dzělo.7z added by hammerandsickle (899KiB - application/x-7z-compressed - This is following file #34338.)
file #34338:  My Proposal II.zip added by hammerandsickle (7KiB - application/zip)
file #34208:  My proposal.zip added by hammerandsickle (5KiB - application/zip)
file #32904:  Sample - FreeSerif vs Segoe UI.pdf added by hammerandsickle (202KiB - application/pdf - Sorry for my oversight. I found Segoe UI for Windows 8 suooprt more letters than FreeSerif in cursive type, I think some of letters can be seen as reference.)

 

Depends on the following items: None found

Items that depend on this one: None found

 

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    Follow 15 latest changes.

    Date Changed By Updated Field Previous Value => Replaced By
    Wed 28 Oct 2015 04:23:17 AM UTCNoneAttached File-=>Added Expaination for comment #31.png, #35317
    Thu 01 Oct 2015 09:08:45 AM UTCNoneAttached File-=>Added Zemlya and Dzelo.png, #35020
    Thu 24 Sep 2015 04:16:37 PM UTChammerandsickleAttached File-=>Added FreeSerif_Italic,_with_modified_Zemlya_and_Dzelo.7z, #34975
    Thu 17 Sep 2015 03:05:08 AM UTChammerandsickleAttached File-=>Added Apostol_(Ivan_Fedorov__1564)_2.jpg, #34906
      Attached File-=>Added Hrabar-On-letters-L40.jpg, #34907
    Mon 14 Sep 2015 04:02:20 PM UTChammerandsickleAttached File-=>Added FreeSerif_Italic,_with_modified_Zemlya_and_Dzelo.7z, #34876
    Thu 02 Jul 2015 02:58:50 PM UTChammerandsickleAttached File-=>Added FreeSerif Italic, with draft for Zemlja and Dzělo.7z, #34361
    Mon 29 Jun 2015 08:54:42 AM UTChammerandsickleAttached File-=>Added My Proposal II.zip, #34338
    Fri 12 Jun 2015 11:29:47 AM UTChammerandsickleAttached File-=>Added My proposal.zip, #34208
    Wed 28 Jan 2015 11:14:14 PM UTCStevan_WhiteSeverity3 - Normal=>1 - Wish
    Sun 25 Jan 2015 09:35:00 AM UTCStevan_WhiteStatusNeed info=>Postponed
    Sat 24 Jan 2015 01:01:55 PM UTChammerandsickleAttached File-=>Added Sample - FreeSerif vs Segoe UI.pdf, #32904
    Wed 24 Sep 2014 05:21:10 PM UTCStevan_WhiteStatusConfirmed=>Need info
    Wed 24 Sep 2014 05:31:02 AM UTCStevan_WhiteStatusNone=>Confirmed
      Assigned toNone=>Stevan_White

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