bugFree UCS Outline Fonts - Bugs: bug #39918, Arabic ligature middle...

 
 

bug #39918: Arabic ligature middle YEH+REH-like letters

Submitted by:  Rosella Capriotti <rosy58>
Submitted on:  Sun 01 Sep 2013 09:29:30 PM UTC  
 
Category: individual character(s)Severity: 3 - Normal
Item Group: glyph(s) incorrectStatus: Proceeding
Privacy: PublicAssigned to: Steve White <Stevan_White>
Open/Closed: OpenRelease: 2012-05-03

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Fri 13 Sep 2013 10:08:13 PM UTC, comment #9:

Yes, that's it I'm happy you managed to grasp the heart of the matter on the first go :)

Rosella Capriotti <rosy58>
Fri 13 Sep 2013 08:57:19 PM UTC, comment #8:

Let me re-phrase:

The jeh (etc) ligatures are of importance to other languages similar to that of the the zain ones for Arabic. The Presentation Forms range covers only Arabic ligatures.

For consistency within each language, if one ligature of a letter of a certain class (shape) is made, so should they all.

These are sufficient reasons to go ahead with these ligatures.

There is a minor policy issue: the slots in the font for the existing ligatures were set aside for me by the Presentation Forms range. For any others, I have to find a special place for them.

Steve White <Stevan_White>
Project AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Fri 13 Sep 2013 05:44:44 PM UTC, comment #7:

First of all: request doesn't mean emergency, you take your time of course, I just confine myself to pointing out flaws and improvements, then you make your choice and eventually, implement those changes when you deem it fit.

It's not in Unicode tables because Arabic Presentation Forms were designed for strictly Arabic usage, they don't contain non-Arab letter, and JEH is indeed a Turkish, that is non-Arab letter, so that's why you won't find it in there but you'll find REH and ZAIN, which are Arabic letters. But Arabic Presentation Forms were obsolete by the time the Unicode Consortium implemented non-Arab letters, so they didn't bother adding new ligatures.

About the evidence: I don't mind ligatures, but if you want to implement that type of ligature, you should include all REH-looking letters, not just REH & ZAIN. There are two things you need to understand about Arabic and every typographer will confirm what I'm about to say:

1. To understand the Arabic script, you need to deal with letter shapes, not letters "tout court", like in Latin, Cyrillic and Greek, because it's the letter shape which tells you the contextual forms, that is the peculiar shape the letter is going to assume according to the position it occupies in the word.

2. Ligatures in Arabic are functionally just customised, "cool", powered-up contextual forms and therefore they must adopt the same adamant logic as basic contextual forms.

I hope you understand my point now. Thanks.

Rosella Capriotti <rosy58>
Fri 13 Sep 2013 04:58:31 PM UTC, comment #6:

Hi Rosella,

Regarding jeh: I was waiting for your response to my comment of 07.09. I think I provided there the best explanation I could.

Can you give me some clue as to why this presentation form isn't in the Unicode tables? Is it of secondary importance to the zain? or is it used in some other kind of text as the zain?

Please understand I have limited resources here, while I'm being asked to do several other things at the same time as you make your requests. It really helps me if you can provide some kind of outside evidence substantiating a request.

Steve White <Stevan_White>
Project AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Fri 13 Sep 2013 02:53:22 PM UTC, comment #5:

Dear Steve,

Now the ligature works for ZAIN but you haven't implemented it for JEH yet. Why? As I said, the shape is the same and seeing ZAIN in ligature and JEH not, it jumps out at you, and, believe me, it's not pretty at all, actually very sloppy. If you take a look at the Unicode table, there are other nine letters (besides JEH), which share the same letter shape as ZAIN and REH.

Rosella Capriotti <rosy58>
Sun 08 Sep 2013 06:16:35 PM UTC, comment #4:

Emmanuel,

the problem you mention is the same as the one that was fixed in the commit.

Steve White <Stevan_White>
Project AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Sun 08 Sep 2013 04:30:22 PM UTC, comment #3:

FreeSerif also contains a ligature of yeh with noon (U+FC94), which according to my Arabic test page is not present in the ligature table.

Emmanuel Vallois <emmanuel_vallois>
Sat 07 Sep 2013 03:25:54 PM UTC, comment #2:

OK, I figured out what you were referring to.

The confusion of zain with noon was just a typo in the ligature table. It's now fixed in SVN.

As to why there aren't any ligatures with jeh,

  • there aren't any in the Unicode range

Arabic Presentation Forms-A
http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/UFB50.pdf
whence I took the small list of ligatures.

  • I only added the others by request.

Nobody asked for jeh ligatures.

  • Also I seem to remember finding a list of important Arabic ligatures. I only added the top ones on that list.

Can you explain why the jeh ligatures are important?

Steve White <Stevan_White>
Project AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Sat 07 Sep 2013 02:54:57 PM UTC, comment #1:

Hi,

It would be helpful to have the original document you used to make the image, or at least the Unicode text.

Steve White <Stevan_White>
Project AdministratorIn charge of this item.
Sun 01 Sep 2013 09:29:30 PM UTC, original submission:

Hello,

As you can see, the ligature between middle YEH and

*ZAYN=ZAYN looks like a NOON
*REH=OK
*JEH=no ligature (why?)

You seem to have excluded JEH from all ligatures, though, as the combination of NOON+JEH is ligature-free, unlike NOON+REH and NOON+ZAYN.

Rosella Capriotti <rosy58>

 

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    Follow 5 latest changes.

    Date Changed By Updated Field Previous Value => Replaced By
    Fri 13 Sep 2013 08:57:19 PM UTCStevan_WhiteStatusFix posted=>Proceeding
    Sat 07 Sep 2013 03:25:54 PM UTCStevan_WhiteStatusNeed info=>Fix posted
    Sat 07 Sep 2013 02:54:57 PM UTCStevan_WhiteStatusNone=>Need info
      Assigned toNone=>Stevan_White
    Sun 01 Sep 2013 09:29:30 PM UTCrosy58Attached File-=>Added Middle YEH+REH-like letters.png, #28975

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